Up to two months ago, I was not too excited by the claims of a bubble in the Chinese stock market. Maybe the stocks that trade only in China were at bubble levels, but the ones that trade in the U.S. or Hong Kong still looked like mostly good investments.
Much has changed since then. On October 17, PetroChina rose 14.5%, more than doubling in about two months. That was a one day gain in market capitalization of almost $60 billion, and a two month gain of $247 billion (doubling the market capitalization). I’ve seen similar but less dramatic rises in smaller Chinese stocks that trade in the U.S., but less on the Hong Kong stock exchange.
By comparison, the largest rises in market capitalization that I’ve been able to find in the technology stock bubble of 1999-2000 were a $50 billion one day rise in Microsoft on December 15, 1999, and a $250 billion rise (doubling) in Cisco which took four months.
I’m not saying that Chinese stocks are clearly overvalued yet, and I’m still holding some stocks in smaller Chinese companies that I don’t feel much urgency about selling. But the unusually strong and long lasting Chinese economic expansion, combined with the unusually frothy action in the stock market, are what I’d expect to be causes and symptoms of a bubble.
Bubbles in the U.S. have peaked when real interest rates rise to higher than normal levels. The Chinese government is keeping real interest rates near zero, and seems to think it can keep nominal interest rates stable and reduce inflation. That would be an unusual accomplishment under most circumstances. When combined with a stock market bubble, I suspect it could only be accomplished with drastic restrictions on economic activity, which would involve instabilities that the Chinese government has been trying to avoid by stabilizing things such as interest rates.
Without a rise in interest rates or drastic restrictions of some sort, it’s hard to see what will stop the rise in Chinese stocks. So I’m guessing we’ll see a bigger bubble than the U.S. has experienced. It’s effects will likely extend well beyond China.
bubbles
All posts tagged bubbles
Last week in a ski lift line I overheard a college-aged guy bragging about how he was making money in the Florida housing market before going to college.
This kind of anecdotal evidence is not as reliable as I would like, but market bubbles rarely have conclusive evidence, so I feel a need to make use of all evidence. If housing market peaks are much like stock market peaks, this is definitely evidence that we are near at least a short-term peak in the housing market.
The rationalizations that I’m noticing from people who want to deny the existence of a housing bubble are becoming more obviously contrived.
Last spring, the strangest one I noticed was this Tyler Cowen post, which notes the unusual rent-buy ratios, then ignores that anomaly and devotes the rest of the post to questioning a weaker argument for the housing bubble theory.
This month I noticed someone on a private mailing list who had enough sense to realize that current housing prices probably depend on a continuation of unusually low and stable long-term interest rates expressed confidence that the “psychological consensus against inflation” would make that likely. If such a consensus existed, I would have expected to see people expressing concern that the Fed’s policy being too inflationary, when in fact I see people jumping at any excuse (e.g. a hurricane) to advocate a more inflationary policy. Plus I see politicians racing to expand the federal debt to levels that will give them massive incentives to inflate or default when the baby boomers retire.
Now Chris Hibbert comes up with some stranger rationalizations:
The worst historical cases that I know of were times when housing prices dropped 10 or 20 percent.
I thought he read Marginal Revolution regularly, but that comment suggests he is unaware of this description of Shiller’s apparently more accurate housing price history which includes what looks like a 50 percent drop in U.S. housing prices. But that deals with a national average, which gives you the kind of diversification you might get with a mutual fund. Chris’s real estate investments sound less diverse – is that safer?
Continue Reading
According to an October 19 Bloomberg article, Greenspan said:
"Housing price bubbles presuppose an ability of market participants
to trade properties as they speculate about the future," and the
expense and difficulty of moving "are significant impediments to
speculative trading and an important restraint on the development of
housing price bubbles,"
I wonder how he would describe the Japanese real estate prices of the late 1980s.
It might not be a coincidence that the dollar has dropped against gold and other currencies the past couple of days.
I’m not yet willing to bet money that a significant housing bubble is developing in the U.S., but it wouldn’t take too much for me to decide it’s time for such a bet.